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The Throwdown ended in a tie, 4 to 4
Carnivale is the most criminally overlooked show of our time.
loglady said
No other show was able to evoke such passion is so few! Hands down some of my most memorable television moments come from this show. The sense of dread can't really be matched by anything in the recent past. Every single one of the characters was perfectly cast, and were able to invoke a feeling of having actually been a part of their world. So few shows can really convey that. Of course there were only 2 seasons, opening up just enough of a story line to leave those of us who did watch heartbroken to not know how this all ended?
Who was Sofie really? What happened to Jonesy? And who really knew that Nick Stahl could act that well? Management? WTF "Brother" Justin!?!
Serenity comes close, but at least we all got Firefly, we Carnivale fans got nothing!
Gob316 said
As someone who watched Six Feet Under (as your Avatar suggests) and someone who watched Carnivale, I'm surprised that you would even make this argument. Because if you watch those two HBO shows, then I HOPE you watch "The Wire." If not, then it only proves my point more that "The Wire" is the most criminally overlooked show of all time.
Before I create two 1200 character arguments which will completely destroy any argument you have for Carnivale, I need to know what you mean by "criminally overlooked?"
Do you mean by Emmy nominations? (The Wire had fewer)
Do you mean by total viewers? (
Do you mean by decisions made by executives (meaning they didn't care about nominations and decided to pull the plug, i.e. Arrested Development)
Did the show have to be good? (Otherwise, I'd argue that any Anthony Andersen show it the most overlooked)
What does it mean to be the most criminally overlooked? It sounds like a very vague statement, but a bold one nonetheless to choose "Carnivale" when I think everyone in the media who has common sense has been praising "The Wire" and wondering why no one watches (although I have a few reasons)...
More to come after your rebuttal...
loglady said
Criminally overlooked is certainly a vague (and bold!) statement, by design. And yes I watch (and love) The Wire.
I can't say that Emmy nods have anything to do with this, mostly because neither has won any of the major awards. And by that I mean show or cast or individual, yes Carnivale had more nods but it was mainly due to the set direction and costuming. And yes, that's another argument for Carnivale, the ability to recreate the feeling of that time.
Total viewers I admit I'm stumped as to which show had/has more. Certainly I would argue that Carnivale had fewer, hence it being canceled, but I'm more than willing to admit not knowing that.
Executive decisions are a huge factor here. Any show that literally has a six season design with a max of 12 eps per season and gets shut down after 1/3?? The Wire is still going strong into it's fifth, FIFTH season...any show that goes 5 is not overlooked!
And of course the (expected) Arrested Development argument. Great, great show, absolutely overlooked, but going on your above standards (emmy nods/wins and viewership, it blows Carnivale out of the water). And then the movie allegedly in production
Gob316 said
Here's where I have a problem with you declaring "Carnivale" was criminally overlooked. Bottom Line, it really wasn't that good.
When a show isn't that good, it can be overlooked, but not "criminally" overlooked, as if to say it should have gone on for at least 5 seasons (like "The Wire" managed to squeeze out thanks to a mind blowing 4th season that had every critic in the media demanding a 5th season.)
I just don't know where all the Carnivale fans are to say this show was so amazing, if that makes sense. Maybe because it only lasted two years it didn't have as many articles written about it (once again, like the The Wire has this Summer).
And with my mentions of The Wire getting 5 seasons and having articles written about it, in no way am I suggesting it wasn't overlooked. 300 million people in the US and only 1 million people tune in to what both you and I agree on is one of the greatest shows ever (seriously, you have to agree with that, right?). How is that not a huge oversight when 15 million people watch Deal or No Deal...
Here's your test. Ask a stranger:
1. Have you ever seen Carnivale?
2. Have you ever seen The Wire?
Which "no" would make you more upset?
loglady said
Thanks for making my point for me...where ARE the Carnivale fans? A
Gob316 said
In order for a show to be "criminally overlooked," I believe it at LEAST suggests that SOME people watch the show.
If NO ONE watches it, then it's probably "RIGHTLY overlooked." Does that make sense?
No where have you mentioned WHY this show was overlooked.. except that it "evokes a passion" or "invoke feeling." I think few shows do that...
as okbye says, it was just a boring show... and it wasn't overlooked. People gave it a try, and decided that the show was crap. Sorry, but that's the truth.
Like this throwdown?
Episode Recaps
Poll: Cop shows (Part 2)
What was the best cop show on TV from 1998 to 2008?
From EW.com
Comments
McNulty 03/05/08
Gotta say that The Wire is most definitely the most overlooked show of our time. And to add to that, I'd say the following shows were slighted even more than Carnivale...
Firefly
Undeclared
Arrested Development
Freaks and Geeks
Friday Night Lights
that's just off the top of my head...
loglady 03/06/08
Curse a browser crash for posting my abbreviated rebuttal...allow me to finish it here?
Point being there aren't a ton of fans..because it's overlooked!
I think it really comes down to timing. In the span of time since Carnivale and The Wire, TV on DVD has exploded. Many shows survive now because of that, fact is they thrive. I can name a dozen people who've watched The Wire on DVD, myself the only one live. I can't name anyone else who's watched Carnivale. Their stated reason being that there is no closure to the show, so why get invested in it? That right there is criminal!
As for the show not being that good, that's your opinion, which you're welcome to, but Carnivale is in the same vein as Lost and Heroes, two smash hits, why Carnivale isn't as popular is beyond me.
okbye 03/06/08
I couldn't get into Carnivale. I watched probably half of the first season and just found it boring. I think the fact that people didn't watch it indicates that those who loved it were in the minority. Now Firefly, that would be my pick for most overlooked show with Arrested Development a second. Carnivale wouldn't even make the list.
huzzah 03/14/08
I loved Carnivale. I was PO'd when it was canceled.
The end.
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