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hmorsey wins! hmorsey beat Melissalane 7 to 4
Because of the way this Buffy Season 4 arc was handled, I never truly bought Willow as a lesbian.
Melissalane said
As an advocate for gay rights, I am not arguing that Joss and company should have kept Willow straight. What I am arguing is that, because of the way the show portrayed this arc in Season 4 of "Buffy," I never fully bought Willow as a lesbian. Alyson Hannigan is a terrific actress, but her character didn't once question her feelings for Tara, a woman. She'd loved Xander for most of her life, and then her relationship with Oz was so intense. If, after having loved two different men as completely as she had, I suddenly found myself falling for a woman, I would've questioned it. I would've talked to the woman about how this was all new to me. I wouldn't have shrugged and essentially thought, "OK, guess I'm gay now."
I simply don't like it when shows rewrite history for convenience, as "Buffy" began doing often in later seasons. With the exception of Willow noting that VampWillow was "kinda gay" in Season 3, there was never any indication that Willow was confused about her orientation. I realize that many people, especially women, experiment with sexuality--and that makes me even more confused as to how Willow knew so quickly that this was more than mere experimentation.
hmorsey said
I was surprised that Willow was gay, but I never questioned it. I thought that she was possibly bisexual, or maybe Tara was the only woman out there for her. I also thought she might go back to guys after Tara died, but I never questioned the legitimacy of her sexual orientation. Sexual orientations are tricky and I dont think that people realize theirs in a certain formulaic way. I think its all subjective, and I never questioned Willow's.
Melissalane said
I definitely agree this is a tricky subject. I think what upsets me is that I don't feel the show treated it as a tricky subject. Instead, it was all very simple. I have two examples to explain:
1). In Season 5, when an insecure Anya is worried that Willow might go after Xander, Willow stops this in its tracks not by saying she's with Tara or that she's over Xander but by saying, "Hello? Gay now." Clearly, Willow knew, after loving one woman, that she was a lesbian. Her past feelings for Xander and Oz were not taken into account. She didn't consider herself bisexual or in love with one particular female. She was not at all confused about this; this was not tricky for her.
2. While I didn't love the way Willow and Tara got together, I did love them as a couple. I thought at first, perhaps Willow would love Tara, no matter what. This is bigger than labels or orientation. But then Kennedy came along (my 2nd example), and I never bought them as a couple. I felt Kennedy was a flat character--we never knew much about her--so her relationship with Willow was not believable to me. Plus, it felt gratuitous--Two girls kissing! Tune in!--in ways it hadn't with Tara.
hmorsey said
I think that maybe by Season 5 in that episode she felt that she had been with Tara long enough that she had established her sexuality and was no longer attracted to men. I didnt find that line unbelievable, I mostly just found it funny ;) As for your second example, I didn't like Kennedy at all as I think most fans felt. Probably a mix of loving Tara so much and just not liking Kennedy's pushing behavior. I thought it seemed too soon for Willow to be jumping into a relationship but maybe Kennedy was just her rebound girl? I really don't think that Joss meant it to be gratuitous at all. Maybe UPN advertised it that way? I don't recall, but I don't think that's what Joss intended at all and I think it might have just felt gratuitous due to not being a Kennedy fan. It was after that relationship that I felt that Willow was gay and not bisexual, but nothing about Willow's relationships or sexual orientation seemed forced or unbelievable to me.
Melissalane said
Huzzah's comment helps explain why I didn't buy the "Willow's suddenly gay!" storyline: The first stages of her relationship with Tara happened mostly offscreen. No, I'm not saying I wish they'd had that "Tune in to watch girls making out!" episode--just more conversations between the two of them that weren't so draped in subtext, the kinds of intimate conversations they had often in later seasons. I wasn't shown much of their courtship, which made me have trouble believing them together at first. It's too bad, because we got to see tons of DTR (defining the relationship) talks with other couples: Willow and Oz, Buffy and Angel, Buffy and Riley, Xander and Anya . . . shoot, we were shown in great detail Buffy's weeklong courtship with Parker. I wish the viewers could have seen such character and relationship development with Willow and Tara.
As for Kennedy, we did see her courtship with Willow, but I didn't ever believe them. Instead of reinforcing the fact that Willow was gay, it made me feel the show was trying too hard. Why couldn't Willow have spent another year getting over the great love of her life? Kennedy felt rushed, and that was part of the gratuity for me.
hmorsey said
I think that they did show the relationship development between W and T. Although I suppose you are right, they seemed to be draped in subtext, but I think that was just because W was struggling with her feelings since she had never been attracted to a girl before, that we saw anyway. I didn't really catch the subtle hints showing that they were heading towards coupling in their earlier scenes, and I was surprised when she chose Tara over Oz, but none of it seemed unrealistic to me. It was quite surprising, but I think that Tara and Willow were meant to be, and it broke my heart when Tara was killed, as she was my favorite character. And some people don't have much of a courtship at all, they just kind of fall into a relationship, but I dont even think that happened between Tara and Willow, I think there was plenty of time where they were friends before they leaped into what was, in my opinion, a very believable and great relationship. On the subject of Kennedy, I just think of how many couples I know that don't seem like they would work together, but that doesn't stop them from dating. Do I like Willow and Kennedy together? Not even a little bit, but not all couples are perfect.
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Comments
loglady 03/23/08
as an advocate for gay rights would you have preferred they have her be a lesbian and then the second tara died start dating men again?
don't want that to come out sounding snarky, but wouldn't the storyline have been a lot less believable, a lot more "two girls kissing! tune in!" if she'd conveniently gone back to being straight...like marissa on the OC or any other millions of lame gay minute long 'relationships' on television.
and can't people suddenly come out without having to have 'clues'? plus willow was very secretive in the beginning of her relationship with tara, leading me to believe that she was struggling with this newfound identity.
just because we didn't see hours of conversation about willow's internal struggle doesn't mean it didn't happen, joss is not gay nor are any of the writers (to my knowledge) so maybe they didn't want to "cheapen" for lack of a better word, an over the top emotional experience in a person's life by trying to put words to something they may not personally understand.
just my 2 cents (well maybe 3!)
hmorsey 03/23/08
I think Marti Noxon had some experience on the subject because I think i recall her saying in one of the interviews I watched with her that she had two moms, but I agree with the majority of what you said :)
Melissalane 03/23/08
Loglady, I really like what you wrote. It's true that Willow was secretive at the beginning of her relationship with Tara, and I think that does lend credibility. I just really did want to see more of that internal struggle--I think because so much about Willow's character changed over the course of the show. At some points, I just wasn't sure who Willow was anymore, and I think that's because I didn't see her go through the processes.
This is true of many characters, not just Willow. More than other shows, this one began rewriting history for convenience more than once, and it frustrated me.
huzzah 03/23/08
Let's not forget that:
A) There's plenty of lesbians (and gays) that live straight lifestyles in high school and beyond, only realizing their true orientation later. I felt the "gay" realization was fairly realistic. Perhaps seemed sudden because most of the courtship between the two took place off screen.
B) The show pushed the envelope in several ways that had it in the crosshairs of parents' groups. Apart from the occult mythology aspect, it portrayed high school life fairly realistically -- drinking, sex, etc. It may never have gotten the green light as a series were a major character gay, when you take all the other "objectionable" stuff along with it.
While I'll admit that I felt like the kiss with Kennedy was gratuitous, as a 20-something man I have to admit that each time I see two women kiss I have to wonder if it's not being done for just that reason. As to Kennedy's "pushiness", I know that after I broke up with a girlfriend I was in a bit of a funk. I got "pushed" into another relationship with a woman who I've now been married to for 4 years.
RobGrizzly 03/23/08
If Willow really was gay, there's no way she wouldn't be crushing on Buffy Summers. Tara? Over Buffy? It would be fun to watch both Xander and Willow vie for the slayer's attention at the same time
scarsandstories8 03/23/08
i would vote on this, but i'm kind of between a rock and a hard place. i agree that we were sort of thrown in to willow being a lesbian, which was all to drastic to be treated as it was. and, i agree with hmorsey that tara may have been the only girl for her. but then... kennedy? no. i did not like that. i think oz is honestly her soul mate, but whatever. good argument, tho.
OzzieAlThor 03/24/08
Willow just fell in love with someone. Period. She happened to have **** and lack a ****. It doesn't have to be elaborate ya know.
loglady 03/24/08
rob--have you read the comic? if not, i suggest you do...i don't want to spoil things for everyone else, but the willow/buffy relationship has and will be discussed more...
as far as not seeing those expository 'coming out to herself' episodes of willow's, i personally liked that we DIDN'T see that happening because it really set things up for me as though i was actually willow's friend.
let me explain, W was very secretive, trying to figure things out in her own head. many people i know who've come out, do so almost suddenly. these conversations tend to be all in one's own head, and then next thing you know it's whammo--mom i'm a lesbian. NOT talking about it made it seem much more realistic for me. that isn't a conversation you have with a friend, because at the end of the day, no matter what they say, you will make up you own mind
Moononastring 03/24/08
This was one of my major problems with season 4 - characters doing things completely uncharacteristic of what we know of them. I had no problem with Willow being a lesbian - in fact, the Willow/Tara relationship is one of my favorites on the show - beyond the fact that it sort of came out of nowhere, and was never really dealt with in a real way. Yes there were "clues" in season 3 but considering how much of Willow's arch prior to season 4 was in light of her relationships with men, I never fully bought into it and that did effect my experience watching the show. In a weird way, I felt a little bad about the whole thing -- as if a disservice had been done to the Willow/Xander and Willow/Oz relationships. I'm not saying they shouldn't have gone there (in fact I applaud the show for being brave enough to do it so completely) but I would have liked a more gradual and authentic arch.
Melissalane 03/24/08
Moononoastring, I don't think I said it better myself! :)
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