Mar72003_699_lg hmorsey wins! hmorsey beat Justin 5 to 4.

Holtz was one of the best Angel Big Bads.

Mar72003_699_lg
Record: 8 - 3 - 7
Winner! 5
VS
Mar282003_702_lg
Record: 2 - 5 - 1
Loser 4
hmorsey said

Holtz is completely underrated when it comes to big bads on Angel. I think season 3 is the best season of the show and I enjoy Holtz's storyline immensely. He is one of the many villains in Joss Whedon's shows that I enjoy to have around and was sad to see go. You can't help but feel bad for him, even though he stole Connor and had Justine slit Wesley's throat...after all, Angelus killed his entire family and turned his daughter into a vampire...at least he didn't kill Connor...

Justin said

I always thought Holtz was misused and was never that big a threat, to be considered a "big bad." His sole purpose on the show seemed to be a way to introduce Teenager Connor. I just never got the feeling of dread and evil from Holtz, and in the end, he just was not a very good villain.

As for my pick for Angel's big bad, I would have to say Jasmine. She may have only have been in a handful of episodes, but her appearance was hinted at long before. Plus, Gina Torres pulled the character off brilliantly by playing her as the answer to all that was bad with a hint of sinister. Also, without Jasmine and the dilemma she set up, we would not have had the genius fifth season.

hmorsey said

He turned the son against the father, which led to Connor dumping Angel in the ocean! He made Connor think that Angel killed Holtz and he convinced Wesley that Angel was going to kill baby Connor. He turned friend against friends and son against father. He was extremely manipulative and I enjoyed his storylines immensely...particularly because they came with flashbacks and I love finding out about characters' pasts. I wasn't a big fan of the Jasmine storyline at all. Gina Torres is brilliant but i just found her episodes a little slow, especially considering how fast paced the rest of season four had been. And without Holtz we would not have had the brilliant character development of Wesley and the breaking up of the Fang Gang, which was bound to happen eventually. I'm not saying that Holtz was one of the best big bads of any show, but I think he certainly was one of the best ones in Angel.

Justin said

Sure, Holtz's actions were critical for plot developments during that season, but I still do not think he was the best villain the show has seen, and I have trouble calling him a big bad, with the exception of the Jasmine threat, Angel did not really deal with villains the same way Buffy did.

With BtVS, each season's arc culminated in a face-off with a recurring villain of that season. Angel did not really do the same thing, keeping the villains for shorter arcs. while Holtz was important to the mythology of the show, I don't think he ever made much of an impact in the way that most big bads showed. Plus, his death was rather weak, and once again only occurred to move the plot forward by getting Connor angry. His arc failed to set him up as a major big bad.

As for Jasmine, I think the build up to her worked perfectly, so when she arrived, we knew she was a big deal. Her episodes, I felt were fascinating in how they set up a situation unlike anything I have seen on television before and since. She was a huge threat and was characterized as being that season's big bad. Jasmine definitely had more impact as a major villain that Holtz ever did.

hmorsey said

I thought that Wolfram and Hart, as a whole, was a better villian, but I still think that Holtz was a great one. I like that Holtz went out with a bang and completely turned Connor against Angel. I thought it was a very strong death. I thought it was his last act of truly good manipulation, and I loved it. I would consider the Beast and Evil Cordelia to be more interesting than the Jasmine arc. I couldn't believe they dragged it out as long as they did and was glad that they didn't have her in the finale and chose to set up Season 5 with the finale instead. I found Jasmine to be uninteresting and felt that her presence slowed down the pace of an otherwise good season(minus Connor and "Cordelia" getting it on, ick). Holtz was a three dimensional villian that I grew attached to and I was sad to see him go.

Justin said

I felt no attachment to Holtz, and found myself rather bored by him. I actually found Justine to be a more fascinating character than Holtz himself. She had an interesting arc to her character, unlike Holtz who was rather flat and mainly existed to move the plot further along.

The Beast and Evil Cordelia stories in my opinion, are part of the Jasmine arc. Those are the stories that build up to the reveal of the tangible Jasmine and set her up to be the huge threat that she is. Jasmine was far more interesting than Holtz ever was, and she was the character (through her demise) that ultimately brought Angel's gang back together, and got them working for Wolfram and Hart.

While, I won't discount Holtz's importance in the mythology of Angel, I think that he was not the show's greatest big bad. Jasmine was a stronger villain, as were Wolfram + Hart, the show's ultimate big bad which pretty much haunted Angel throughout the entire series.

Mar52004_754_lg

I have to think about this one before I vote. I do agree Holtz was a baddie but one of the best --- hmmm not so sure. He wasn't over the top that is for sure -- he was more subtle -- I mean it is pretty darn evil to turn a child against its own father. But did I get a sense of evil and dread -- when he was first introduced -- yeah but then not so much -- so let me think before I come back and vote on this one.

Jan112008_973_lg

In terms of Big Bads, If you are talking about the BEST BIGGEST BADDEST VILLIAN that Angel ever had to face, then there is no comparison. Wolfram and Hart tops them all! They maintained (in one form or another: Holland Manners, Lindsey, Lilah, Gavin, Eve, Hamilton) throughout the series as a constant enemy because they CANNOT be defeated. They are the ultimate evil that exists inside all of us and sway all human beings to comit acts of evil, in turn, they go on...FOREVER. They are eternal and their influence will ALWAYS maintain. They are worshiped in other dimensions, not just our own, and their apocalypse (unlike all other BtVS and Angel apocalypses) is THE apocalypse. A carefully plotted and engineered one. In essence, man (under the influence of the demons) would destroy man and, in turn, destroy himself and Wolfram and Hart would always be there to pick up the pieces. How do you fight something like that? How do you beat it? It is an internal struggle in all human beings. That's why they took interest in Wes after he abducted Connor, and that's why they made ANGEL C.E.O. of the LA Branch. Because their plan was NEVER to destroy people like Wes and ANGEL, but to get them to play ball...on their team, so they would destroy themselves. And it almost worked. If not for choice. As ANGEL says, "Maybe fighting them is what makes human beings so incredibly strong." The fight is a constant one, with no reward and no winners. Even in the finale, ANGEL and his crew KNOW they cannot win and will die and that Wolfram and Hart will go on long after their deaths...because POWER endures. "But for one bright shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us!" That is the struggle that all people face in fighting the influence of Wolfram and Hart, it is NOT them who make the choice...it's us. Something that powerful will always trump minimal threats like Jasmine and Holtz. Always! "We Are Legion...We Are Forever" - Hamilton. "Then I Guess Forever...Just Got A Hell Of A Lot Shorter!" - ANGEL.

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