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demetrithegreek wins! demetrithegreek beat ABCSOAPS55 10 to 7
Amy Heckerling's films "Fast Time's at ridgemont high" and "Clueless" are much better than Judd Apatow's movies...
ABCSOAPS55 said
while people say Judd Apatow's films are comedic gold and the best films aimed at the teen/20 year old audience i think that it was Amy Heckerling with "fast times at ridgemont high" and "clueless" that has produced far better films and will go down in history as having produced the films that most touched teen and 20 year old's. Fast times was and still is an all-time classic with classic characters, hilarious lines and great casting and "Clueless" literally changed how teens in the 1990's talked, dressed and acted. The movie introduced many catchphrases into everyday dialouqe- all the teens in the 90's said "as if", "whatever", and many teens used the terms "baldwin" and "betty'.
I think the more important issue though is that Heckerling's films were infused with a sutble, but important message about teen life and she didn't speak down to people like Apatow's films do.
I think Heckerling had a more detailed vision for her films, whereas Apatow seems to just lump a bunch of jokes together and hope they turn out okay.
demetrithegreek said
Let me make a couple of points here. First, I agree that Fast Times is a classic. Nothing funnier than Spicolli shouting "Those guys are ****!" But come on, how can you defend Clueless as a window into teen life? Clueless is one of the reasons Superbad HAD to be made. There wasn't an ugly/real person in the whole thing. To your point about catch phrases - that's all the movie was. One catch phrase after another.
Speaking of catch phrases, you're dead on with as if and whatever, but as someone who graduated from high school in 1999 and was 13 years old and apt to quote every movie I saw ad nauseam when Clueless came out, I can say without a doubt that nobody ever used the term "Baldwin" and the only people I have ever heard use the word "betty" are 1940s gangsters. Either 1) you didn't grow up in the 1990s or 2) You spent much of your high school years alone.
Superbad was so much funnier. It had more quotable lines and more of the outrageous scenarios that make these kinds of movies so much fun. No one every really did any of this stuff in high school. We just want to see our heroes succeed in the face of the most ridiculous odds.
ABCSOAPS55 said
i disagree about "Clueless" being unrealistic. while yes the film took some dramatic liscene, i think at the heart of it was a story about being different and longing for acceptance. Cher in the movie uses her ability to match people up throughout the film but realizes mid-way through that she has not been able to find someone of her own and she begins to feel isolated and lonely; which i would say is a very universal feeling. Also, the character of Tai is a newcomer who struggles with trying to find herself and fit into this new school. Again, another very universal feeling. Also all the characters in the film tried to be popular and cool---again another universal theme. I was in middle school (8th grade) when "Clueless" came out and graduated high school in 2001 and can tell you that everybody at my school (especially girls) spoke like the characters in this movie--- "as if" and "whatever" were commonly used. i'll give you "baldwin" and "betty" i suppose i overexaggerated their use.
The bigger point is that Heckerling's films at the end of the day have a more universal theme to them and are trying to say something whereas Apatow's films resort to cheap fart and sex jokes
demetrithegreek said
Ah, but you see the cheap fart and sex jokes are just the outer shell. You want to talk about not feeling like you fit in, I'd like to introduce you to a show called "Freaks and Geeks" - and you're not allowed to say that I can't bring up Freaks and Geeks in an argument about movies, because the name of the site is TV Fan.
Were the themes of Superbad not universally relatable - moving on, separation anxiety, friendship, and trying to get laid? I'm telling you that was the majority of not only my high school experience, but my adult life before I got married too.
The problem with Clueless is that I don't really know anyone who wasn't a teenager when it came out that has even seen it. I would put it more on par with American Pie than Superbad in that sense.
ABCSOAPS55 said
are you telling me that adults, grown adults are flocking out to see "Superbad"? come on, get real. The real issue is simply this---Amy Heckerling has done a better job at infusing her films with heart, depth and relatable characters whereas Apatow's comedies have one or the other each, but not all like Amy's films. And i believe that 10 to 15 years from now people will still remember "Clueless" the way that "Fast Times" is remembered but i do not believe for a second many people will be talking about "superbad" as anything other than a passing fad, and i believe that it is that movie that fits more into the line of "american pie" which i think we can both agree has no basis in reality at all.
demetrithegreek said
What? Clueless isn't even remembered now as anything other than "cute!"
Look, you're dead on with Fast Times. It's a classic, but you have to look at 40 Year Old Virgin the same way (remember, we're arguing movies that appeal to teenagers and 20 year olds, not just movies about teenagers and 20 year olds.). It really is classic, and actually a better movie than Fast Times. It totally has depth, relatable characters and is oozing with heart! So is Knocked Up. So is Superbad. Clueless just isn't.
The average kid can't relate to having a convertable, unlimited credit, and a step brother to make whoopie to (and by the way, am I the only one that found that beyond creepy?). They can relate to not getting laid in high school, waiting too long to make a play for the girl, and being scared by going to college far away from their best friend.
I noticed in this throwdown that you never brought up Amy Heckerling look at college - Loser. It was terrible. Now, look at Apatow's take on college - Undeclared. It was brilliant! Apatow has every phase of growing up nailed.
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Comments
HoneyBunny 04/02/08
Fast Times had more great characters, male & female, who you could relate to and cheer for. Superbad's "heroes" were more like caricatures and the constant **** obsession grew tired after a while. Fast Times had **** girls & guys. Plus it was about so much more... There is a richer variety of characters and conflicts. And it's still funny!
But I do agree that Clueless wasn't that great a movie and it spawned too many stupid cliches and fads.
The best movie to represent the hyperkinetic funny sex-crazy teen experience is Sixteen Candles. That movie had my favorite geeks to triumph at a party.
RobGrizzly 04/02/08
This is a tough one. I love all these movies.
Right now, Apatow has 1 good highschool movie to Heckerling's 2. (Drillbit Taylor isn't gonna be a classic).
But Apatow is seeing more success (outside of just highschool) and pumping out more films in general. Heckerling's 2 may not be enough to compete in the long run. Apatow has 4 great comedies all in the works.
Besides, he brought us Freaks and Geeks.
hmorsey 04/02/08
Freaks and Geeks, Knocked Up, 40 Year Old Virgin...all superior to Fast Times and Clueless in my opinion...just thought Superbad was mediocre though...
chilekat 04/02/08
Freaks and Geeks is great, but it's not a movie, it's a TV show. And I would argue that Knocked Up and 40 Year Old Virgin, while very funny movies, are not teen movies, so it's kind of an unfair comparison.
If we're going to go apples to apples, I would look at Superbad/Drillbit Taylor vs. Fast Times/Clueless. Superbad was funny but fluffy. I don't think 20 years from now people will look at it as a classic (the way we look at Fast Times). Drillbit Taylor isn't going to make anyone forget My Bodyguard. And if you can't even be the best movie in your subgenre of teen movies, well then you just don't cut the mustard. Fast Times was an amazing movie when it came out. It's amazing today. It will be amazing 20 years from now. Nuff said. And I have to stick up for Clueless. Was it superficial and plastic? Yeah. Welcome to a large slice of the early 90's. Clueless was also a very sly translation of the skeleton plot of Emma into the throwaway teen pop 90's culture. And it's tongue was planted firmly in cheek. Of course there were no ugly people. The unattractive girl was frikkin' Brittany Murphy! And of course it was full of catch phrases, ridiculous fashion, cheesy emotion. It was meant to be. It reveled in it's velveeta.
Anyway, I love Clueless and think in it's own way it is a classic of its time. Judd Apatow might go on to make tons more teen movies and eventually might wipe the floor with Amy Heckerling. But based on the current output, I gotta give it to Amy.
huzzah 04/03/08
chliekat, the throwdown said nothing about TEEN movies. And her original argument mentioned movies "aimed at" the teens/20s age groups. I think Apatow's movies are perfectly valid for comparison based on this...
And let's not forget Apatow's had his hand in a slew of other films as a producer...
chilekat 04/03/08
Totally agreed huzzah. I'm taking liberties because I like comparing apples to apples not apples to martinis. And it's not my throwdown. I'm just commenting from the peanut gallery, so I don't feel bound by the constraints of the argument as laid out.
I think if you want to look at Apatow's entire body of work vs. Heckerling's then it's really no contest. I mean, this is the woman responsible for the entire Look Who's Talking ouvre (and it's insipid TV spin off Baby Talk). Immediate DQ right there. I'm just trying to parse what's really comparable about the work of the two moviemakers in question.
Melissalane 04/03/08
I love all these movies. Let's wait and see if Apatow's stand the test of time the way Fast Times definitely does--and the way I believe Clueless does.
Freaks and Geeks certainly has stood the test of time, if you count being remembered so fondly eight years later as "standing the test of time." However, "40-Year-Old Virgin" and "Knocked Up," while awesome, are much more recent. It's hard to make a comparison, I think.
ABCSOAPS55 04/03/08
Since i have no more arguements left i'll comment--- one of the things that Heckerling certianly does better than Apatow is give her characters a defined point of view. In Clueless for example you know full well that Cher has a big heart and wants to help people, but simply cannot seem to stop making huge mistakes, you understand where she is coming from---and Josh is clearly meant to be the voice of reason in the film; among all the crazy characters---and it comes across that way in all his scenes. The issue with Apatow's films are that his characters have no defined point of view, it's simply a bunch of jokes stringed together--- in "Knocked Up" for example---we have no idea if we are supposed sympathized with Katherine Hiegl's character or not because in most of the film she comes across as a spoiled, humorless witch; and Seth Rogan's character comes across as lazy, stupid and utterly useless---there is no point of view.
huzzah 04/03/08
Perhaps someone should contact Paul Rudd to settle this...
Melissalane 04/04/08
Hilarious, huzzah--He'd know best!
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