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Topsy Turvy
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Melissalane wins! Melissalane beat Amber477 6 to 5.
I prefer Buffy with Angel than with Spike.
Melissalane said
If I were arguing which character was my favorite on his own, my answer would be different. No one was more charismatic or fun than Spike, in my opinion. And while I sometimes enjoyed (and sometimes gagged at) his dysfunctional relationship with Buffy, I feel that the core relationship of the series was her star-crossed one with Angel.
With Angel, she wasn't punishing herself--and she didn't have to learn to love him, as she did with the re-souled Spike. She fell for him instantly, as did he with her, and just when the relationship couldn't have sweeter or more tender, Joss flipped the switch. Angel lost his soul, and the drama that ensued is, I feel, the greatest the show's ever had. Such a great take on "I slept with him and he turned into someone else."
Plus, even after Angel got his soul back, the drama kept on coming. The two of them realized just how impossible their relationship was, right before he left for L.A. They're a modern-day Romeo and Juliet. Buffy and Spike spent most of their relationship hurting one another--it was engaging, yes. But I don't feel it was the great love story that Buffy and Angel had.
Amber477 said
I completely agree with you that Buffy and Angel were like the Romeo and Juliet of the show- but who wants to root for that? We know it's going to end badly. Buffy and Angel could never truly be together, and they both knew it. I think they loved each other, but knew it could never happen- look at the series finale, where Buffy basically tells Angel to go. She thinks about him, she dreams about a life with him- but deep down, she knows it's not possible.
Buffy and Spike were the best together for me, because we got to watch their relationship evolve from a weird kinship as early as season two to a real friendship in season five to a twisted love story in season six and finally true respect and love for each other in the final season. Buffy and Angel's story was beautiful- but I never felt as invested in it because I had not spent so much time watching it mature and change- Buffy and Spike's relationship could change from moment to moment, and this unpredictable, always surprising storyline was one of the most captivating and unique aspects of the show.
Plus, there's the fact that Spike, even without his soul, served and fought loyally beside her. Contrast that to soulless Angel.
Melissalane said
You asked who wants to root for Romeo and Juliet? Audiences for over 500 hundred years have rooted for the two of them! I teach high school lit, and my students eat that play up with a spoon. The fact that it's an impossible relationship makes it all the more appealing to them.
However, if we are arguing that people don't want to root for a couple when they know it'll end badly, I'll say this: I don't see how that argument applies only to Buffy and Angel. The reason we know it can't work out is because she's human and he's a vampire. Isn't that the reason we knew it was going to end badly with her and Spike, too? Is he not an immortal vampire as well?
Finally, you're right that soulless Spike fought alongside the Scooby gang--while Angelus was pretty much the authority on evil. But Buffy was never attracted to Angelus; she wanted only Angel. And the reason she never hated herself for loving Angel is because he had a soul; in fact, his soul is what she loved about him. Her feelings for him were pure. When she was sleeping with pre-souled Spike, she was repulsed by her feelings for him.
Amber477 said
Sorry I wasn't being very clear- I'm an English major in college, I know people root for Romeo and Juliet- I just meant if there's a relationship on a show that could NEVER ever have a happy ending, it's hard to keep wanting it to happen (for me) as an audience member. Besides, I never really cared about the main relationship in Romeo and Juliet- I was always more of a Mercutio girl, myself. :)
Buffy and Angel were different from Buffy and Spike because of the curse that Angel was under- if he ever experiences true happiness, he'll lose his soul. So if he and Buffy ever were to sleep together/be truly happy together/whatever else- he would lose his soul again and the whole debacle would start again. Not true with Spike- Spike won his soul as a conscious choice and can never lose it- and Buffy certainly wasn't repulsed by her feelings for Spike in season 7.
I think the fact that she was never attracted to Angelus but was attracted to Spike without a soul says something good about Spike too- even without it, Spike was brave and self-sacrificing (not telling Glory about Dawn) and apparently capable of something approximating love (Drusilla for over a century, Buffy).
Melissalane said
Now I feel a special bond with you, as Mercutio is my favorite character, too. Alas, I still must put up my sword once more!
You bring up terrific points, though I still feel the biggest obstacle to Angel and Buffy's relationship is his immortality. That's what made Angel break up with her before prom and leave for L.A. It wasn't the curse. I thought that in Season 3, they'd figured their way around the curse--they could love each other, they just couldn't LOVE each other, know what I'm sayin'? I believe that if a couple loves each other enough and can't have sex (for whatever reason, be it vampire curse or paralysis), that's a sacrifice worth making. Now, the fact that in 60 years Buffy would look like Angela Lansbury while Angel would still look like David Boreanaz, that's tougher to get past. The Mayor said it was for him and his wife, which is what made Angel rethink things.
That's something that eventually would've affected Spike and Buffy, too, if their countless other problems hadn't occupied all their time and attention.
P.S. Spike was capable of good pre-soul, but he was also nearly capable of rape. And she made out with Angel while with a souled Spike.
Amber477 said
It hurts me to keep arguing with a fellow Mercutio fan, but alas...
I just think Buffy being with Angel but never BEING with Angel would be torture for both of them. I think if it came down to it and Buffy was to run into Angel and Spike in some kind of post-finale movie situation, I would want her to be with Spike. She loves them both, clearly. But Buffy and Spike have a strong sexual connection that Angel and Buffy could never really share.
I have to address the near-rape scene since that's the biggest strike against Spike, obviously. I have to say, even though what Spike did was wrong here, I can definitely see why he was confused about how far was too far. Think about his relationship with Buffy up to that point- how many times did Buffy say she was disgusted with him and then make out with him? Their first time together was after they had kicked the living daylights out of each other- their whole early relationship intertwined sex and violence. And there's also the fact that after Spike made this colossal mistake, he moved heaven and earth to fix himself.
Also, I wouldn't say she "made out" with Angel while with Spike. They kissed. And then she told Angel to beat it.
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Comments
QueenSerenity 04/12/08
I think that Love is about never wanting to INTENTIONALLY hurt a person you care about. So I think trying to be together but never being able to be is better than being together and hurting one another.
hmorsey 04/13/08
While I like the character of Spike and I like Spike and Buffy together...I absolutely LOVE Angel and Buffy together...its one of my favorite tv show couplings ever...and the whole unhealthy season 6 relationship between Buffy and Spike makes me like their coupling a little less...especially with the attempted rape...that aside, I loved their relationship in season 7...just nowhere near how much I love Buffy and Angel together...
boslen13 04/13/08
The Spike/Buffy relationship was just too unhealthy - any pairing that starts as an expression of self-hatred and punishment on the part of one isn't a particularly good one. I don't know how it really moves past that. And while I actually hate Romeo and Juliet (really, I swear, it fills me with rage - why waste my time rooting for people to silly to help themselves) I loved the Angel and Buffy relationship - they loved each other but were able to live productive lives without each other. Their relationship was healthy and, if not always happy, hopeful that two people so strong could someday, some way figure out how to be together.
Allimuffin 04/14/08
This subject makes me feel very conflicted. When the series finale aired and Angel showed up, my gut reaction was "GO AWAY!" because I was so into the Spuffy relationship. Now that I've started watching Angel, I remember how cuddly he was and how passionate and tragic the Buffy/Angel romance was. Suddenly, I wasn't as sure about the whole thing.
I want Buffy with each of them for entirely different reasons. I loved the arc Spike's character took from when he realized he was in love with Buffy to winning back his soul to be worthy of her. Buffy grew much more from her relationship with Spike (as destructive as it was at first), than her relationship with Angel. Joss Whedon said that in an interview somewhere that Spike was much more on Buffy's level than Angel was. I think that's why I love them together. The Buffy/Angel romance is the stuff of fantastical tragic romance, whereas the Buffy/Spike relationship is much more difficult, frustrating, destructive, and therefore grounded in reality.
I can't decide. I am torn to the heartstrings.
Destiny 04/14/08
This is an easy choice Angel and Buffy by far were the better couple. Although Spike and Buffy had chemistry he was no Angel. I also felt this was the best couple on TV. Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of Spike, was happy when he moved over to Angel no one else could make Angel so mad!
I doubt though really had the show gone on longer that Buffy would have ended up with either. After all she couldn't maintain a relationship with Riley, not that he was worth a mention, she couldn't hang on to Angel, he left her go, and Spike he only wanted what he couldn't have, even going so far as getting his soul back why? He will never be Angel. Spike was a bad boy Drucilla and he made a great match, while Darla and Angel where a train wreak. Truthfully Faith was a good match for Angel, when she crossed over to Angel you could see there was something, instead he went after Cordy YUCK! If I had a choice, if it were to happen it would be Angel not Spike.
Moononastring 04/14/08
This is coming from a huge Buffy/Angel fan - but...I actually really liked Angel with Cordy. That relationship developed very naturally over a long period of time...from aquaintences to colleauges to friends to best friends and ultimately to two people who were in love with each other (and tragically were never able to act on it). I loved how real and natural the relationship felt; Buffy and Angel were about passion, about love at first sight, about crazy obsessive love. Angel and Cordy were about mutual goals and understanding, about wanting the same things and being in the same place as people. Two completely different relationships, both interesting in their own ways.
The same can be said for Buffy and Angel vs. Buffy and Spike...both relationships, to me, were interesting and made sense in their own way. Again, the Buffy/Angel love was instantaneous, it was about what the characters WANTED. Buffy and Spike was, at first, completely about what they NEEDED. Yes it was unhealthy, and violent, and painful, but it also made them both better people and gave each a better understanding of who they were and who they were meant to be.
At the end of the day, I don't know who I prefer with who...it's harder to say because the Angel on "Buffy" and the Angel on "Angel" weren't quite the same. Same for Spike. All I know is that between the two sets of comics and the possibility (I can dream, can't I?) of a movie somewhere down the line, I think the story is far from over. My guess is that ultimatelt, when Joss writes the last word of the last comic/script/whatever, Buffy and Angel will be together. And knowing Joss, he'll write it in such a way that I love it.
Candy Cavity 04/14/08
I prefer the hot sexuality of Buffy and Spike to the I-love-you-but-can't-touch-you thing Buffy and Angel had. Those scenes when she's invisible and does things to Spike that he seems to enjoy quite a bit are very hot to me. I agree Spike is more capable of love in a way that Buffy needed. Angel's love was so pure that it was nauseating. Even Angel on Angel was hunky but sexless. The sexiest thing is when the Furies all say "Angel, mmmm Angel" in unison. Physically, though, I like seeing Buffy and Angel together.
nuttiskyn 04/15/08
Moon--Huge agreement that Angel on AtS and Angel on BtVS were two totally different characters. I really have to say that I hated him on buffy and that was really what kept me from watching AtS for so long. I relented and gotta say that I really did love the show (smile time? anyone?).
But I did like Buffy better with Spike, mostly because it evolved, there was never this instant love at first sight thing. Maybe I'm a jaded you know what, but love at first sight never really gets me the way that loving someone who was an acquaintance or dare I say it, frenemy, gets me. Something much more forbidden about it I suppose.
Moononastring 04/15/08
LOL, that slo-mo walking down the hall scene in Smile Time has to be one of the most classic Buffyverse moments ever. Brilliant!
vampire_slayer 06/24/08
Even though it is obvious that Buffy and Angel belong together, I prefer her with Spike. First, for the obvious reason that I like Spike a lot more than Angel. He is much funnier and has a more entertaining personality by far. Second, Buffy and Angel were pretty boring. They fell in love right away, had all the usual problems that come with dating a vampire, and then Angle pulled the cliche "I have to leave for your sake" move. Spike and Buffy hated each other the first time they met. Their relationship was so much more interesting because you never knew what was going to happen. Plus, Spike was in love with Buffy without a soul, then got his back permenantly to please her. Angelus would NEVER do that for anyone ever!
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